Unstuck & Scaling with Athena Captain: 3 Knobs Every Business Owner Can Control for Massive Growth

Are you feeling stuck in your business—even though you’re already successful?

 In this episode of Small Business Pivots, host Michael D. Morrison sits down with Athena Captain, a nationally recognized business coach, consultant, and speaker based in Oklahoma City, who helps business owners scale to their next level of success.

Athena shares her powerful story of resilience—from growing up in extreme adversity to leading multi-million-dollar companies—and reveals the three controllable “knobs” that drive every thriving business:

✅ Your Database — why your contact list is your most valuable business asset and how to finally use it.
✅ Your Clients — how to nurture relationships that create repeat customers and referrals.
✅ Your Referrals — how to turn trusted partners into your true sales force.

You’ll also hear how Athena built multiple businesses while raising a child with special needs, what she learned from her mentor Darren Hardy, and how every entrepreneur can rebuild their mindset, routine, and revenue from the ground up.

This conversation will help you refocus on what really drives growth—relationships, systems, and revenue.

 You’ll also hear insights from her mentor Darren Hardy, practical tips on choosing a CRM, and her philosophy on staying grounded through faith, systems, and discipline. 

🎧 Listen now to learn how to simplify, scale, and strengthen your business.

Connect with Athena Captain:

• Website: https://www.athenacaptain.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/athenacaptain/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/athenacaptaincoaching
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/athenacaptain/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@athenacaptain1373
• Podcast: https://www.athenacaptain.com/podcast/
• Blog: https://www.athenacaptain.com/blog/

Show Notes / Time Stamps

• 00:00 – Welcome & intro to Athena Captain
• 01:30 – Business today vs 5 years ago: why owners must adapt
• 04:45 – Athena’s story: from trauma to resilience and leadership
• 11:00 – Mindset and routine: how successful people fight limiting beliefs
• 16:15 – The importance of faith, therapy & daily discipline
• 19:40 – “Stop the Noise”: why inertia is killing business growth
• 22:00 – Knob #1 – Your Database: own your data vs depend on social media
• 27:20 – CRM 101: how to choose the right system for your industry
• 31:15 – Knob #2 – Nurturing Clients for Repeat Revenue
• 37:30 – Knob #3 – Referrals as Your True Sales Force
• 43:40 – The $70K lesson: why basics beat shiny objects
• 47:50 – Building intentional referral partnerships and relationships
• 52:10 – Athena’s resources: Goal-Setting Bootcamp & upcoming book
• 54:00 – Final takeaway: “Don’t underestimate the knowledge you already possess."

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Athena Captain
• 1:52 Setting Listener Expectations
• 2:36 Show Intro And Sponsor
• 3:18 Athena’s Resilience Story
• 7:33 Mindset, Routine, And Therapy
• 11:45 Cutting Through Sales Noise
• 15:22 The Power Of Your Database
• 18:43 CRM Basics For Beginners
• 22:03 Nurturing Clients For Lifetime Value
• 27:12 Back To Basics Beats Shiny Objects
• 31:35 Referrals As Your Sales Force
• 36:06 How To Build Referral Partners
• 41:05 Courses, Boot Camp, And Book
• 44:10 Final Insight And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

All right, welcome to another Small Business Pivots where we have special guests from around the world. And this one is just a few minutes away from us here in Oklahoma City. And we are honored, and it is a treat for our listeners today to have our guest. But I know that only business owners can introduce themselves and their business as they prefer. So I let you do the stage of introducing yourself so that we have a clear understanding of how and where and who you are.

SPEAKER_00: 0:28

Well, my name is Athena Captain, and I am a business coach consultant. Um, I help businesses who already are successful scale to the next level, get unstuck personally and professionally, and help their teams get unstuck. So that's what I do. I also have um two podcasts. One is called Referral Roadmap. The other one is called That Shit Doesn't Define You, Stories of Hope. And that is about resiliency and overcoming. Um, and I also um am a professional speaker. And I've got some other businesses on the side. You know how as entrepreneurial people, um, you know, can't do just one or two things. So but that's who I am. And um so I'm excited to be here today.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11

Fantastic. Well, I appreciate your time. So, what what do you think? We were talking earlier before the show. How do you think our listeners will benefit from our content today?

SPEAKER_00: 1:20

Well, I think um if they are in business today, then they need to be on their toes. Um, business has changed. Um, things that we used to do five years ago, even two years ago, are not working today. And if they're in business today, and if they're not feeling a squeeze, if they're not feeling some something going on, then they're not in business today. So today we're gonna kind of unlock what I'm seeing nationally with all of my clients, no matter how big or small or what industry, and some tools that they can take away to actually impact their business.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51

Fantastic. Well, before we get started, we'll introduce the show and we'll be right back. Welcome to Small Business Pivots, a podcast produced for small business owners. I'm your host, Michael Morrison, founder and CEO of Boss, where we make business ownership simplified for success. Our business is helping yours grow. Boss offers business loans with business coaching support. Apply in minutes and get approved and funded in as little as 24 to 48 hours at business ownership simplified.com. All right, welcome back to Small Business Pivots. Tina, I know that most of us as business owners, we've had trials, tribulations, and a lot of us do have resilience, perseverance. That's what gets us to that next level. And I know you're better. Exactly. And I know you have quite the story. You're right. You're not allowed in this group if you don't.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

No snowflakes.

SPEAKER_01: 2:52

But I know that you have quite the story, and I know for our listeners, they can be they can relate a little bit better if they can relate to your story. So can you kind of share your story a little bit of how you grew up and how until you got into adulthood so that we can all relate to that?

SPEAKER_00: 3:09

Yeah, that man, that's a whole podcast. But I'll give you the oh my goodness, yes, I'll give you the abridged version. Um, the abridged version is I came from nothing, um, beyond nothing. Um, if you are familiar, for those of people who are listening with the A-score, which is an adverse childhood experience score, I'm a 10 out of 10. So psychology books say that I don't exist. I should be in jail, I should be dead. Um, you can imagine the other statistics. Um, so I came from nothing, um, extreme poverty, extreme, extreme compounded abuse. I think the best way to sum it up is my mom was a drug addict and she trafficked me for to supply her drug. So I come from where I shouldn't be anything. I'm dyslexic. Um, I was overachiever, and I got into college on a scholarship and I had a nervous breakdown, and boom, I found myself losing the one thing that was gonna save me from being like anybody else in my family. And so I had to figure it out. Um, I'm not gonna say it was an easy journey. If you have a past like mine, you know it takes a lot of faith and a lot of healing and a lot of therapy to get through all of that to be able to thrive. But one of the things that I learned very quickly is that I had a knack for leadership and I had a knacked for sales. And so I dove into it early in my 20s. I became very successful very quickly. Um, I I talk about this, you know, on my podcast, but I became a workaholic, which is an addiction, which I became to validate myself and to get help me get over the trauma of my childhood. But um, that's part of the story that actually worked, I guess, because it allowed me to grow and develop. And what happened is I learned um how to be very successful in that space. Then I went on to lead international and national huge corporation sales teams. So I did that very successfully. Uh again, it's one I would say that my well, my husband laughs and he says I'm saffant because I'm only good at this. He calls me the business with spur. He's like, You're freaking excellent at this. But hey, listeners, I suck at everything else. I can't cook, I suck at driving. I don't know. There's so many things that people just laugh because I'm like, yeah, I don't know how to do that. So um there's a lot I don't know. So I just stuck, man, to what I knew. And so anyway, I became very successful. But what happened is um I worked for other people, but then I became a mom of a child with special needs, severe, profound special needs, about well, 20 years ago. And I couldn't travel any longer. And then I became a single mom because her dad committed suicide from the pressure of it all. So I became a single mom and had to figure it out. And so I started working in the entrepreneurial space so that I could have the flexibility to be a mom and a businesswoman. And so I did that. And in the last 15 years, I became went to work for a home building business and I redeveloped and structured their whole company and helped them become a radically successful decad million dollar company. I'm a partner there. Um, in the meantime, I also started a nonprofit called Savannah Station in honor of my daughter, which is equal therapy. That was my hobby, by the way. And then I also created my consulting business. So I did those three things in the last 10 years and um all while taking care of my daughter with severe profound. So everything I'm teaching you is not like I write a book, I read lots of books, I'm a nerd, but everything that's coming out of my mouth, I do it. And I don't just do it in the past tense, I do it today. I have multi-businesses that have to run, and I have clients that have to run, and I have a nonprofit that is scaling and growing. So I feel what you're feeling. I've been where you're at. Um, and I've had the privilege of just going through a lot of hard knocks that helped me become very resilient and not a snowflake.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

I love the story. Yeah. Well, uh let's resilience. Yeah, I know we're gonna talk about leads and sales and the three knobs that you have, but yeah, I know for a lot of us we have maybe not the same story, but we have a story. And for a lot of us, including myself, I have to work on my resilience every single day. I have to get up at 4:30, five in the morning, do my devotional, do my mindset, my mantras, all that stuff just to get focused for the day. So it's not easy once you get it figured out. It's an ongoing process. So for those that haven't got it figured out, that's still challenged with how why does everybody else just seem to be coasting and moving right along? And I keep getting held back every day because I can't get past up here between my ears. What are some tips that you can share of how you moved past that?

SPEAKER_00: 8:03

Well, I think the biggest thing is to recognize this. You're not alone. I say this a lot, but you're not alone. Whatever you're feeling, whatever emotion that you're you feel like I can't, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough. I've I have felt it. Every successful person I know, my mentor, Darren Hardy, I have have the privilege of actually knowing him and getting to go on walks and then multiple dinners with him. And he is uber successful. I mean, self-made hundred hundreds of millions of dollars, non-college educated. And he'll tell you he struggles with imposter syndrome. If somebody who's achieved all of that, just let you know you're not alone. So all those feels just say, oh, okay, you feel it too. I think we need to acknowledge that. Let's talk about that first. You know, we all feel it. We felt it, have feel, and we struggle with it. Um, successful people, we don't talk about it enough that we still struggle with it. So just first of all, know you're not alone. Number two, those limiting beliefs are limiting beliefs. They are telling you that you can't because they want to keep you safe. And I gotta tell you, if you want to grow, you're gonna have to be okay with not feeling safe. You just won't. Because your limiting beliefs want you to stay small because they want you to say what they think is is safe. So you've got to be willing to say, you know what, I'm gonna challenge those beliefs. I'm gonna feel a little uncomfortable, I'm gonna feel a little unsafe because I'm I'm gonna really kind of figure out what I can really do and not be afraid to fail. You're gonna fail. Hello, welcome to the class. We all fail. Okay. And the and the farther you go, the more you fail, FYI. So be be ready to acknowledge it, be ready to be uncomfortable and be ready to fail. And then, hey, welcome to the club. I gave you a shake, you know, shaking your hand right now. Welcome to the club. Then what do you do? You gotta do those things first. Um and then you come up with a routine. I know that sounds ridiculous, but here's what I tell people get the help you need. Seek out therapy if you need. I couldn't, I couldn't do what I do or what I've achieved without therapy, especially the level of abuse I had. So if you need therapy, get it. If you need a coach, get a coach. I have coach, I have three coaches. If you knew how much money I spent on personal development every year, it blow your mind. Get help. Um, you can't do this alone, period. Um, the other thing that you're gonna need to do is you're going to, if you have a faith, whatever that is, you're gonna need to lean into your faith. I I'm a Christian, I I will say this boldly without my relationship um with Jesus, I would have died already. So, you know, and I understand a lot up in the world, like, oh, we don't like him. Cool, I get it. Religion is shit. I understand that, but Jesus is not. Jesus is amazing and he is my strength. And so I um that's what for me, and I'm my best friend um Buddha is hers. So whatever it is that is your thing, you need to figure that out and then build a routine. Like you were just talking about. I um I don't like getting up at five. I used to get up at 4:30, but something mentally instead, if you see that four, it just sucks. So now I do five just to see the five. It just makes me feel better. But I have a routine. So every morning my brain knows we're gonna get up and this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna, we're gonna spend time physically going for a walk. We're gonna spend time um with in your faith. You're gonna spend time doing these things every single morning that just ground you. And then even throughout my day, everything is excessively planned. And then my evenings end in a routine. And so that my brain knows I'm gonna start this way, I'm gonna end this way. So no matter what the chaos of the day is, I have bookins that I can depend on. And that's that's what I would suggest you start with. So awareness, right? Become aware, be ready to be scared, understand you're not alone, get help, whatever that looks like for you, and start building some systems and some book ins. That's what that's really what it takes. And you'll be surprised. I can I say this and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah but you will freaking surprise yourself of how resilient you are. You will surprise yourself how smart you are, how creative you are, how amazing you are. And that's the fun part, right? And what you're right, that's the fun part when people get it.

SPEAKER_01: 12:29

You're like, Yeah, you know, watching them, yeah, watching them go in. And there's just something about that morning time alone before the dogs get up and all that, that I can train my mind, I can power my mind to think one thing before the world tells me something different. So that is so powerful to get up early before everybody else does. But there's something I want to touch on because you know, Darren Hardy is my favorite mentor too. And for those that are questioning what book they should start with, for me, it was the compound effect by Darren Hardy. I used to have that limited mindset, and that book was introduced to me by my very first coach who said, Ask me what books have you read lately? And I said, Well, Cat in the Hat to my son. He didn't think that was funny, but I did because that's I hated reading. And you know what? Ever since I read that book, I read all the time now. It was transformational for me, that book and Darren Hardy. He has Darren Daly's everyday. Um so if someone's looking for a mentor, I encourage you to go get that book and listen to Darren Daly's Everyday. Great, great advice there. So let's move into sales because I know a lot of people are really struggling with that today, especially with the digital era. Is SEO important? Is AI important? Where do I go? What do I do? So let's just start with the basics of what you share. I mean, it's really not that hard anymore if you have some foundations.

SPEAKER_00: 14:03

Well, I'm gonna tell you um, there's too much noise. Yeah. This is the thing. I just gave a keynote speech last week, and I was like, we got to stop the noise. The noise has become our creative avoidance as business leaders. We now are like, hey, if we just listen to the noise, then we can somehow psychology in our psychology say, hey, I don't know which action to take, so I don't take action. The pandemic that is happening in a business in sales right now is inertia. Inertia from too much. And so whenever you have inertia, you got to go back to this most simple things. And you got to go to the things you can control. By the way, AI is changing every day. As business owners, you better figure, you better get under, you better get to understand it. Matter of fact, I won't hire anyone without a high level of competency in any of my businesses now without AI competency. Um, it just is necessary. And so you as a leader do need to understand that. SEO, hey, I pay people to do enormous SEO um traction because it's changing every day, every day. And what used to work for us business leaders even three years ago is not working. Matter of fact, what worked for us 14 months ago is not working. These platforms are changing. Now, I have the the I have the blessing to be able to afford within my business to have experts that are studying to go uh in front of it. However, if my business were dependent on it, I'd have failed, all of them. So, yes, do we need to stay in front of it? Yes. Do we need to be dependent on it? No. No, not no. Um, because it's changing too often. Social media, once again, it is changing too rapidly. Do you need to do it? Yes. Do you need to be smart about it? You better. Do you need to be dependent on it? You better not. You know, one thing, so we talked about Darren, one thing, I'm I'm an elite with Darren, um, which just means I pay a lot of money to have access to him and have done every training. Um, and my team has done every training he's ever put out. And one of the things that I will tell you that he is telling us, uh, and I I I believe it, because if he's yelling at us about it, he is saying all these platforms you need, and this is where I'm gonna go into my knobs here, but all of the platforms, social media, Google, remember that is somebody else's database, not your database. So the first thing I want to talk about is if you are using TikTok as your only database where you get business, you better think about it. If Facebook is the only place you get business, you better think about it. Because these platforms at any time can shut you down, block you out, and then your business could be over. That's not a good business strategy. Just think about this. So I want you to think differently. What Darren has been telling us for a while, and I'll share with you, is those platforms are for you to use to bring people to your database. Those platforms are for you to use to bring people to your database because we have three knobs we can control no matter what's going on in the economy. And I'll give these to you in in short nuggets, right? I know we're on a limited time here, but the number one thing we as business owners own, and I don't care if you're a lone wolf or you're one of my big tech companies that's international and doing, well, now they're doing about$80 million a year. It doesn't matter. This is the same, it's the same. Okay. Your database is your most valuable resource. Your database is your most valuable resource. So you can control what you do with your database, you can control using other platforms to fill your database. Then a whole nother podcast, what are you doing with it, right? What are you doing with that database? What are you doing to nurture it, grow it, expand it, love on it? So if you want to think, okay, Athena, I've got to control my business right now. What are you doing with your database? Is it organized? Is it structured? Are you growing it? Are you nurturing it? Is are you losing people from it? And why? Start asking yourself these questions. Um, very important. Any questions about that before I go to on a knob number two?

SPEAKER_01: 18:35

Yeah. A lot of small business owners are overwhelmed for obvious reasons. And so when we talk about databases and how to store them and things, many of them haven't even heard or truly understand what a CRM is. Oh yes, there are still a lot. And to me, that's almost like AI, but in a short bridge version, could you share how to store a database the best way?

SPEAKER_00: 19:04

Okay, first of all, you need to get a day. You by the way, you cannot be my coaching client without a database. You have to purchase one in order to even coach with me because you will not be successful to the potential that you need to be without one. So, what is the best CRM for you? Hello, it depends on your industry. Um, my nonprofit uses one. Now, both of my businesses, I use HubSpot, but HubSpot can be really expensive and not the best option for people. You need AI, go ask chat. I call it Chatty, go ask Chatty for your industry and tell Chatty really what you do. Tell that to do an analytics of five of the best CRMs that are affordable and easy to use for your industry. Start there. Just start there. Even if you start, you know, I tell people when I speak, and it breaks my heart when I ask people how many of you have a CRM and I don't see everybody, my heart breaks. That's like going to McDonald's and they are out of fries for a business. It's absurdity, okay? It's absurdity. And so you you have to understand, I know you're busy. So am I. We all are. But not having a CRM to pick one is literally like McDonald's not having fries. Okay, it is not an option. It's not an option. You must have it. So that's asked chatty, best five. Get in there, use it simply. You don't have to use it to the level that some of us use it. Just get in there and start using it. I mean, you want to talk about me getting on a high horse. That's one of them. You'd think I own a CRM company and I'm you and I are on the same page, and for that reason, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:54

I see so many business owners when they hear I need to find a CRM, they'll spend more time trying to decide which one. And you said it. Just pick one, just pick one and start and don't absorb yourself in sales funnels down the road. Just like figure out how to import your stuff in there first and do a pipeline, and that'll get you started. Because there are just priorities, and this is one of them, right?

SPEAKER_00: 21:21

AI is McDonald's with no fries, dude. That's what people need to think.

SPEAKER_01: 21:25

Well, I went to McDonald's a long time ago and they didn't put meat in my bun. So it's almost like not having meat in the bun either. No fries, no meat.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

You know, I'm like, no way. I mean, anyway, I don't mean if you don't have one and you're listening to this, I'm not trying to shame you. We're not shaming. Nope. We love you and we want you to be successful. And um, this is just one of those things. It's a non-negotiable, absolutely. I would rather, this is crazy. I would rather you shut down every social media platform you have and stop spending money and time on it and work your database. When I first built the home building building business that I had, we didn't have social media. We didn't have advertising dollars. I had a freaking empty database. I filled a database, I built a DECA million dollar company before I had social media and advertising. Your database is more important than any freaking post you post. Because why are you posting if you're not grabbing people to put them in your database? It makes no sense. Unless you just want to be fake popular on social media, which is feeding your ego, not your wallet. Think about it. Why are you posting if you don't have a database? Sorry, I'm Amen.

SPEAKER_01: 22:49

Well, because now I'm like, oh, uh, and and and no. Well, let's move to number two.

SPEAKER_00: 22:55

I mean, we can you and I can do a whole nother, I mean, anyway. Uh and I don't remember the RM company, I promise.

SPEAKER_01: 23:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Knob number two. So we've got a database. All right, number two.

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

That's the number two knob. We got a database. Number two is nurturing your client.

SPEAKER_01: 23:12

You're listening to small business pivots. This podcast is produced by my company, Boss. Our business is helping yours grow. Boss offers business loans with business coaching support. Apply in minutes and get approved and funded in as little as twenty-four to forty-eight hours at business ownership simplified.com. If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the subscribe button and share it as well. Now let's get back to our special guest. Yeah, yeah. All right, number two.

SPEAKER_00: 23:46

That's the number two knob. We got a database. Number two is nurturing your clients at all money. And so you need to think about that. So, what are you doing? Where are you leaving money on the table? And so there's a lot of opportunity here. Um, I will tell you, I meet with business owners that um even have databases where I'm like, what are you what are you doing to nurture and stay in front of your current clients or past clients? And they don't have a system in place. This is not acceptable. So you need to be making sure in your database, what am I doing with my clients to make more money, offer them more things, and or get them to be referral partners and to build relationships with them so that I don't lose them. So you're you really need to think, and that's a whole nother strategy. I could go very deep with you. Um, for a long time, I thought at the home building business, I'm like, I build a house, you know, once it's a one and done, it's a full custom house on land. Like once we do that, how can I make more money per, you know? Uh well, I said, Athena, you can't preach this if you don't do it. So we are now, we are are opening up different lines where we add on after-the-fact things that we can make small profits on. So you need to be thinking, you know, this, but I can't need to be, hmm, what if I could? You know, I think you really need to start as business owners, we need to look at the gold underneath our feet before we want to go attract the world. Okay. So um, your client, what are you doing with your current clients? Anything to say about that?

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

Can you give a couple of examples? Because business owners typically, well, we'll do a note card. We'll do like what are how can someone create just a simple talking to their clients? What are some examples?

SPEAKER_00: 25:38

Um, so it depends on how big your your business is. But I'm gonna tell you the note cards are not a bad idea. I mean, that's something. Um, I can't tell you how many I see that don't do that. But in my opinion, um, if you are small, you should have in your CRM, you should have a cadence of how often you are communicating with your clients, checking in with them. How's it going? What could we be doing better? You know, what's going on in your life? You need to have relationship. This is a relationship, sales is a relationship business. And if the only time you're talking to them is when they're purchasing, you're you've you've already lost them. Okay. So you need to have relationship with them. And I use this when I speak, but you I think it will hit home. What if you went on a date and it was all warm and everybody liked each other? And then you decided, yeah, you know what, we're gonna do this together, we're gonna be in a relationship. And then once you got them in a relationship, peace out, you didn't text them anymore. You didn't check in on them, you didn't check how they're feeling, you didn't care about everything they were saying like you did in the beginning. You didn't want to go to lunch with them, you didn't want to spend time with them. Would you even think the relationship would go anywhere? You wouldn't. But we do that with clients. Think about it. That's what you're doing. You're saying, I'm too cool, I'm too busy for you. So you can have email campaigns, you can have text campaigns, you can have cards, you can have cadence of lunches. It depends on how big you are. But by the way, those CRM that I told you to get, they have things built in where the cadence will be done for you. You just have to create the emails. But you in the and the emails need to be adding value. Like this is a real life example. This I I'm I have a very full calendar. And this Saturday, I am having lunch, which I do not do lunch very often because of my calendar with someone. I'm taking her to lunch on a Saturday, very nice lunch. But she is a referral partner and has been for over seven years in one of my business, and she gives me millions of dollars of business a year. I have lunch with her quarterly. I know everything about her life. I know about her children, I send gifts to them. This is a relationship. Now you don't have to do that with everyone, but somebody's sending you millions of dollars of business every year. You might want to think about doing that, right? Right. So there are ways that you can do that, but you need to stay minimally, just pick up the freaking phone. You know, pick up the phone. And you can do, you know, my one of my friends, Kyle Draper, taught me to do this, and I thought it was hokey at first, but I did it and it worked, and I was like, oh, okay, bad on me. But it's you know, it's just sending him a video. Like, you know, I'd be like, hey Michael, hey man, it's been a minute. How are you? I saw that post on social media. What was that about? You know, just sending it. It's that simple. Don't overthink it. You're having a relationship. Have a relationship. Care about people, care about their business, care about their life. That's all I'm asking you to do. And if you're a huge company like Zach, my CEO out in Colorado, I mean, he can't call all of his people. He can't, but he knows who his top 10 are. And his staff know who the people are, and they have special things for those people, and and they treat them accordingly. So um you you you gotta be thinking about what are you doing to make them feel special.

SPEAKER_01: 29:19

That's important because many business owners today are so distracted with the noise, they're out there making videos, which is not gonna attract a business today, nor in the near future, and they're trying to make it viral and social media and everything. And so what we're talking about is just the basics of relationship.

SPEAKER_00: 29:38

Go back to relationships. Go back to relationships. We should have never left relationships, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 29:43

Yeah, no, I I agree. And these, you know, I tell business owners, especially the one so we have most of our listeners that I've talked to on the podcast, they're stuck. They're uh maybe operating as a new business, even though they might be in business. For 15 years, 20 years, second generation. They're still doing things the old way. And so they're looking for these creative ideas, and they do get distracted with so much noise that they forget about the basics. And I share with them, you can sit there and spend an hour or six on this video and editing and all that, or you can pick up the phone and go have coffee and have you a sell at the end of that coffee. Like this is what we're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:25

Well, I I this is a funny thing. This is a lesson learned. So for one of my businesses, the home build building business, I could see um last year that everything was changing, the algorithms were changing, all of this stuff. And I have a very robust website that produces a lot of leads in that business. But I could see a lot of things happening. And because I was like, you know what, I need somebody to stay on top of it. So I did all this research and I picked this international company, tons of reputation, and I paid them. I'm just gonna be trans, I paid them$70,000 in 10 months to come in and ensure that that business was on the cutting edge, dude, you know, doing everything they needed to do, blah, blah, blah, to keep us. Yeah. So$70,000 got me two leads. Yeah, digest that for a second. So when I stepped back and I said, hey, okay, that's a hard lesson to learn. That's a big check to write, right? For nothing. Um and I thought, you know how to, you before you made money, you knew what to do. So I went, this isn't a true story. I went and I invited our target audience to a class where I taught these people something. I walked out with four leads. Four leads. Cost me an four hours of my time. This is what I'm talking about. Because here's the thing my ego liked the fact that I could attract and this big company wanted to use, you know, work with me and how excited they were. My ego was didn't want to have to do it. I wanted somebody else to do it. It cost me 70 grand for nothing. When all I needed to do is go back to what I freaking know how to do, which is going back to the basics, and I could outdeliver them. By the way, I wish I would have paid$70,000 to an employee. I just taught how to do what I do. I would have made a lot more than$70,000. So this is what I'm telling you. Like as business people, we get, oh, I want that shiny object. I want that. It's cool. Why? If it's not making you money, you gotta think about we're not in this for an ego, or we're not in this for any other reason than profit. Right? I mean, that what's the number one? Okay, if you're a CEO, you're a business owner, what's your number one responsibility?

SPEAKER_01: 33:01

Oh, you're asking me?

SPEAKER_00: 33:02

Yeah. Number one responsibility.

SPEAKER_01: 33:05

Visionary.

SPEAKER_00: 33:07

No.

SPEAKER_01: 33:07

No.

SPEAKER_00: 33:08

Revenue. How the freak are you making money? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:11

To make revenue.

SPEAKER_00: 33:12

I don't care. You don't even have to have a mission. But if you know how to make money, you got a company. I know people with great business plans and great ideas that don't know how they don't have a prospecting plan, they don't have a CRM, and they don't know how they're gonna bring in revenue. You don't have anything unless you have revenue. Period. Right. So what are you doing to make the money? And then once you know how to make the money and you have those systems in place, then as a CEO, you're not yes, you have to be a visionary, but you have to be a visionary. The next most important is the people you recruit and hire because they'll expand. But I'm telling you, I see so many people, but spending all of this money, I'm working on my mission statement. I don't care about does your mission statement gonna go to the bank? And I'm not anti-mission statement. I have one, I have one for my personal life, but we got to figure out what are we doing to make money. Sorry, I get you can tell I'm a little passionate about this. Oh, because I see so many people failing and they don't need to be failing.

SPEAKER_01: 34:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:15

It's we don't need to be failing.

SPEAKER_01: 34:17

Well, and the I think Darren Daly just uh hit on this the other day about the interpretation of words or some version of that. This wasn't too long ago about this person may mean that, and you've heard this and that. It's just so diluted right now, but it goes back to the basics. Yeah, the revenue. I said visionary, but you know, it's like what's your interpretation of systems, video, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. And I love how we're just boiling this down to where you there's a lot of stuff you don't have to do, right? But what you do have to do is get off your pedestal, right? Uh, because I know a lot of business owners. Well, I want people to think like I own that, I run this company, and it's like, okay, yeah, but you still have to get out there. There's nothing like founder sales.

SPEAKER_00: 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:08

I mean, founder sales is where it starts. I mean, no one's gonna sell your company like you can, right?

SPEAKER_00: 35:13

You know, you can build the system where you don't have to sell it anymore, but you gotta start. I mean, that's you you gotta start somewhere. Yeah, I mean, you really do. Absolutely, I absolutely agree with you. And by the way, I am a visionary and I do have a vision, but that vision needs to come with how I'm gonna make some money.

SPEAKER_01: 35:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 35:29

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 35:30

So I always say it has to be income producing, like your vision has to be income producing.

SPEAKER_00: 35:36

Yeah. If you have to um I see so many people anyway, it just breaks my heart because I see people that I know that if they got good direction and they just focused on the basics, they wouldn't be killing it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 35:49

You know, and then the last knob, because I know I'm taking up too much of your time and because I get really passionate about all this stuff, but the third knob is what are you doing about referrals? What are you doing to nurture the ones you have? What are you doing to get more? And what are you doing to expand that? Um, so that's really critical. I see this get wasted again. Um, I I just spoke at a conference and I spoke about this in particular. And after the conference, young lady came up to me and she said, I'm failing in the business that I am. And I said, Okay, well, tell me what strategies you're using right now. And they were all social media related, um, all marketing related. And um, I asked her, I said, Do you have any referral partners? Do you have anyone who's ever referred business to you? And she said, Yes. And I said, What are you doing to nurture them? What are you doing to have a relationship? What are you doing to add value to them? What are you doing to get them to introduce you to people like them? And she's like, Well, I don't want to bug them. She's young, right? She's getting bad advice. I don't want them to see that for you. I and I'm not anti-social media, trust me, I have social media teams. I I get it. But it doesn't take the place of fundamental things. And your referral partners are your most critical people. I have to tell you this, especially if you are a small business, your referral partners are your sales force. Your referral partners are your sales force. And if you had a sales force, wouldn't you be meeting with them? Wouldn't you be talking to them? Wouldn't you be giving them strategy? Wouldn't you be helping them, adding value to them? So you gotta think like this. I mean, hello. What are you doing for your sales force? And what are you doing for your to get your sales force to expand that Salesforce? That sounds so easy, but it gets overlooked because it's not as glamorous. You know, we're talking database here, we're talking going deep in relationships with clients, and we're talking about building and nurturing. We're not talking about glamour. This is none of this is glamour. None of this, and and I'll say this the world may not see you doing this. And that's okay. But the stability of your business will, and that's really what matters here. And um, so you know, we talked about the beginning, the noise. The noise is because there's too many people, Michael, like you and I, trying to sell something, people who've never done it, people who are trying to pick a niche and telling everybody that's the thing they have to do. Okay, I get it. It's an entrepreneurial thing, and somebody might need you. But do me a favor, vet people, make sure they've done it or are doing it, and make sure it's the thing you really do need. I have I pay for help, I pay for support, I definitely pay for coaching. But make sure it's what you need. Don't be sold. Go find the resources you need. That's really important. Um, and because we can't do this alone, if you're listening to this, you cannot do this alone. Um, you minimally need to be listening to podcasts like this so you can get some wisdom so that you know because people are after you.

SPEAKER_01: 39:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 39:27

But um, and some of it's good, you know. Some of like I have, like I told you, I have many, I have, I have coaching for different things. Um, but you need to know what you're looking for and why you're looking for it and what is it gonna do for your bottom line. I think that's important. But going back just to sum it up, so get a database. Yes, we don't sell it, but I I think you really important you need your database. Number two, what are you doing to have a relationship and nurturing um your clients? And number four, what are you doing to expand your referrals, which are your sales force?

SPEAKER_01: 40:01

So let me ask real quick, because I I've been asked this, but I want to get your opinion on how do you build those referral partners? Because I know a lot of people are afraid to reach out. Now, uh for those introverts, the best book I believe out there is how to win friends and influence people. That will teach you everything to get along with people, how to all that good stuff. So there's books and guidance on that, but how would one find those referral partners? Are you talking about like a group? Are you talking about like having some three or four people where they're just what what is your description of referral partners?

SPEAKER_00: 40:34

So um, my description, this is just what I have done. So at the home building business, when I first started, we had three referral partners. In less than three and a half years, we had 2,500. Um, and what you have to do first and foremost, and this is all coming out in my book. I have a book coming out next year, and I explain this in detail. But the number one thing is you need to know who your people are. You need to know who your target market is. You need to know who your target market is because you need to know who the people who are touching your target market. So the target market are the people who you can actually that will purchase your product or service. Your referral partner are the people touching those people. You need to go find those people. So you have to identify your target market first, and then you go find the people who are already loving on and touching and nurturing your people. Um, Darren Hardy calls it your school of fish, and that is finding where your where your tribe is. Where are those people? The problem is people go to networking events and think, hey, I did my networking. I don't care. Is it I don't care? Are who are you talking to and why are you talking to them? Good for you. You feel popular? I mean, hello. It makes no sense. Now, when I started building that referral network, I was a single mom with a special needs kid and I was broke. And I had to pay somebody$20 an hour to watch my special needs daughter while I went and did networking. I didn't have time to play games. I didn't have time to go to the wrong events. I had to go, I had to be efficient, I had to make relationships, and I had to build a follow-up plan. That was the one thing that if I wouldn't have been put in that dynamic, I probably would have been lazy about it. But I couldn't be lazy about it. But people are so lazy about it. So what you want to do is like, where are the people who are touching your people? Go make relationships with them and don't overcomplicate it. That is an awesome book. Um, I have a lot of books back here. Um and on prospecting. Um I'll have to send you one that I also like, and which is the author is actually from Oklahoma. Interesting enough. But these are great books to get you pumped up. But can I be honest? Don't overthink this, just go be nice. Go be nice and don't ask for something until you give something. And I was broke, so I wouldn't be, I had no, I couldn't give them anything, but I knew books that I could recommend to them. I had podcasts I could recommend, I had blogs I could recommend, or I could just have a relationship. Go just talk to people, be interested, not interesting. Right? Go go talk to the right people and then build relationships with them and then build systems to follow up with them. That's what you do. You know, I hear I get invited, oh my gosh, I get invited to so many groups. That works for some people, but my target market isn't in those groups. So why would I go? I don't need another social calendar thing. I don't need it. So you just have to be wise. Who is your target market? Who touches them? And is that where I'm spending my energy and time? I think that's really what's important. And am I doing it authentically? Do I care about them? And am I adding value to them? And do I want to help them grow and be good? Don't overcomplicate it, just do that.

SPEAKER_01: 43:51

Golden nuggets, one right after the other. Be intentional. And I'm encouraging our listeners to be intentional about going to your website because you have a lot of stuff you offer. So tell us about your podcast as a reminder. Uh, the things that you have. I know that I'm registered for one of your classes coming up here in December.

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

Oh, my bootcut. Oh yeah. So let's talk about it. Oh, that's one of the best I do. I'm so excited you're coming back. Oh my gosh, that's good. Um yes, yeah. I obviously I have a website, um, AthenaCaptain.com. Um, I have courses on there, and we're about to expand those dramatically. The biggest thing I would say to go on my website right now, though, that'll be life-changing, and I I'll I'll commit to this. One is if you can get into the December, um, we have online and in person, if you're local, that goal setting boot camp is unlike, I promise you, it's not like one you've ever gone to, ever. Um, we talk about your whole totality of life, not just business. People come out of there transformed. Um, and so I highly recommend that just for a holistic start to your year. But um, the second thing is get on my book list, my pre-launch book. My book, believe it or not, the we wanted to call it Unstuck Yourself, but the publisher that is publishing it and getting in all the bookstores, well, I don't know what the name of the book's gonna be yet. So this team is gonna tell me what it's gonna be. But it's talking about these 10 things that I put in place and I put in place for my clients to help people. There is so much information in that book and free resources that you'll want to get into that list. So I highly recommend that. And of course, yes, I on my website, you'll see I have a website, I have a podcast about business, and I have a podcast about resiliency and overcoming. My goal in life is to use everything I've ever been through, professionally and personally, to help other people reach their potential so that none of us are stuck and none of us think that we're less than, and all those voices that tell us we shouldn't, couldn't, whatever, that I help you shut them up.

SPEAKER_01: 46:04

I love it. Well, I end up with one last question here. It's a simple one. Uh if you were in a room full of entrepreneurs, different businesses, different seasons of business, what's one last thing that could be applicable to all of them? It could be an insight, a quote, or just a life lesson.

SPEAKER_00: 46:27

I'd have to say don't underestimate the knowledge you already possess. So that you can share it with others.

SPEAKER_01: 46:38

That's powerful. You've been a blessing to many and a wealth of information. I wish you continued success, and I can't wait to be I'm coming in person to your thing in D Space. I will see you there.

SPEAKER_00: 46:51

Awesome. Yay!

SPEAKER_01: 46:53

Thank you. Thank you for listening to Small Business Pivots. This podcast is created and produced by my company, Boss. Our business is growing yours. Boss offers flexible business loans with business coaching support. Apply in minutes and get approved and funded in as little as 24 to 48 hours at business ownership simplified.com. If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the subscribe button and share it as well. If you need help growing your business, email me at Michael at michaeldemorson.com. We'll see you next time on Small Business Pivots.